Balance Between Seclusion and Sangha Phra Cathal 10 01 24

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Phra Cathal: In the world and sort of, you know, sort of finding that balance. Yeah, I. I have asked you this a few times, but it’s still.

Dhammarato: You’re staying a deeper one. Right?

Phra Cathal: No, Don Kiem.

Dhammarato: Don Kim. Right, sorry, Don Kiem. Yeah.

Phra Cathal: But Ajahn Mehdi, very. He really likes to be involved in the community life. He’s.

Dhammarato: Yes.

Phra Cathal: And I’ve been tagging along most of the time, pretty much anytime he has. But I would say now, because I’ve been here for almost three months, that I’m finding that I’m coming to that feeling again of, oh, you know, this is a lot of community stuff. But I would rather be in my kuti right now. So I’ve actually asked him to stay in my kuti and go on Bindabad alone. Because this is our last. Our last couple of weeks of the Panzer. You know, the panza ends on the 21st of this month.

Dhammarato: Okay, that’s good to know. That’s October is this month. It’s the first day of October. So the 21st.

Phra Cathal: Yeah, about three weeks. Yeah, about three weeks. And then that’s our panza. Vasa, whatever.

Dhammarato: Vasa and panza are two different poly words that actually come from two different dialects of Pali. In fact, there are two different languages. That’s something that a lot of people don’t know is that the Pali is not a language, but the various suttas are in various languages all grouped as Pali.

Phra Cathal: You know, I mentioned vasa to so many Thai people and they just go. They don’t. It doesn’t go in their ear, you know, So I say panza instead and they understand, but they’re not Vasa. It’s weird. Yeah.

Dhammarato: Yes. But vasa is a Pali word and it has the same thing that. In fact, here’s something that you can use as a referent. What is a small body of water normally found on a farm?

Phra Cathal: Pool.

Dhammarato: Pond.

Phra Cathal: Pond. Oh, very small. Okay.

Dhammarato: Okay, so there you go. For ponza, that. So the English language word for pond, you can find that this got its roots in the original Indo European language. Okay. Now, vasa, if you change the V to a W, which is common, what does that word give you?

Phra Cathal: Wasa.

Dhammarato: Water.

Phra Cathal: Okay. All right. It’s just fun.

Dhammarato: Okay, so when it’s rain, what comes down is water. And when you get a lot of it, you get a pond. So both of them have water as a base in the language.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Phra Cathal: Okay. New information for me. Thank you.

Dhammarato: Pardon said.

Phra Cathal: This is all new for me. Thank you. I never heard.

Dhammarato: I mean, you, you. But you’re a linguist. I mean, haven’t you studied Indo European languages? Haven’t you taken classes in Greek and Latin?

Phra Cathal: No, I don’t. We have. We didn’t do that. I don’t know if they do that nowadays in. At least in Ireland. We never did that. Anyway, it was something you have to do outside of school, I think when I remember back in school, someone you.

Dhammarato: Go to, all the rich guys, they.

Phra Cathal: Do that stuff, you know.

Dhammarato: So, anyway, back to what we were talking about. And that is the question is actually kind of two questions that you’re asking. Well, one of them is, what are you going to do after Vasa or after Panza? What are you going to do after Katan?

Phra Cathal: That’s something I was going to kind of, you know, bring up at the end of the question about the balance of community sort of involvement and which is quite. Which is quite big in this community of sue and Mok and sue and Mok International and the retreats and all the ceremonies and all these sort of other monasteries that we go to and the Dhamma talks.

Dhammarato: To is in fact very much like a diversification, like a university or like a big watt would be, in the sense that you’ve got new monks and old monks.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Dhammarato: And you’re a new monk. But Ajahn Meti is an old hand, and so he has already gone through a lot of the stuff that you need to go through, and yet he likes to take you and whoever is there. In fact, the question that you’re asking in a way, was phrased to me way back as far as 2016, about eight years ago, because friends were staying at Dam Kiem and Ajahn Meti was taking them to Suratane, taking them to all the little schools and up the road and all over the place, because that’s who our Chan Meti is. And in fact, by the way, his family is in Suratani.

Phra Cathal: Yeah.

Dhammarato: And so he. He is actually doing the kind of community service that a senior monk is very good at doing. But he likes to take the company along. He likes to take the student monks for two reasons. And one of them is to show the Westerners off to the Thai people in the communities that he’s visiting. And so you’re kind of a tool for him when he takes you to those places. Not only that, but he introduces you around and pats you on the head and all of that kind of stuff in front of the Thai, mostly Thai children, Thai school students and whatnot. Is that not correct?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Phra Cathal: The Gucci handbag scenario okay.

Dhammarato: So has been doing this for years.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Dhammarato: And so he’s giving you a training now that will be very useful for you in the years to come when you’re as a senior monk as he is.

Phra Cathal: There. You’re not wrong. Really, there’s. There’s good benefit I have gotten out of this. Really, Honestly, there’s fairly good benefit out of it, but there is this sense of I would like alone time.

Dhammarato: All right, well, now, here’s. Here’s the plan, Stan. One of the ways that you can look at it is that after three weeks, you are then free to go someplace else. And if you want seclusion, we have just the right place for you here on Copangan. And you already know all about it.

Phra Cathal: You’re talking about what, Count or Europe?

Dhammarato: No, I’m talking. Actually, we can talk about what Cow Tum is in the same state, but you also have tong.

Phra Cathal: Oh.

Dhammarato: Okay. So Watang Nang, you also have what, Pa Siang Kang. So you’ve got several possibilities here on the island. You can also move into Wat Su and Mok and perhaps get a cootie way back in the woods someplace if they haven’t all fallen down by the termites eating them.

Phra Cathal: Yeah, I was sort of.

Dhammarato: You know where Ajahn Poh’s kuti is at wat suan mokkh?

Phra Cathal: Yes.

Dhammarato: Okay. I’ve seen very, very close to. There is an old wooden cootie that I stayed in when I was sourced at Watson Mok. Oh, no, that is right up the hill.

Phra Cathal: He has a new. A new kuti up in the middle of sort of a. A new building that he stays in now. So maybe it’s a different one.

Dhammarato: Okay. No. All right, so you know where the. The dormitory is at Watson Moke, and the old, old, old building that has the bell made out of a World War II shell.

Phra Cathal: Oh, yeah.

Dhammarato: Okay. And it’s got the big tonka of the potica samupata.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Dhammarato: Okay. And so across from there is the original generator electrical building.

Phra Cathal: Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay.

Dhammarato: Okay. And they’ve taken the generator out, but some of the old electrical stuff that was operating with that generator is still in that building. It’s actually looks like a garage now, and it’s kind of unused. Okay. You go to the. Looking at the building to the right side, and there’s going to be a path along the right side of the back of that building. And you follow that path up a ways, and it’ll take you first to a concrete kuti, and you turn to the right again, and that will lead you up the hill a bit to Ajahn Poh’s original old kuti. All right, You. You go beyond that and turn again, right, and that’ll take you up to the cootie that I stayed in. Old cooties. The reason that I’m mentioning these is because they’re far enough out of the way and yet close enough that there’s kind of that in between. And you can have a lot of time there. Very close to the dining hall. Rather than a 20 minute walk, it’s a five minute walk. And there’s those old cooties, both his old cootie. And there’s also up the hill from there, an old barn. Actually, I think it was originally a repair shop for old vehicles back in the 1940s, because it’s got that. Well, you know, nowadays they put a car on the lift to raise it up so that they can work underneath it. But in the old days, they would dig a pit and then the car would roll over the pit. So that building there, these are buildings that I know of that I spent time in that are pretty close to the Watt without going off into the old cootie area. But in any case, you can talk to the guy who has the keys, the office, whoever’s running the office nowadays has the keys to all of those cooties. And what I would recommend is you go inspect the cooties and find any of them that have locks on the door and doesn’t look like anybody staying there. Pick out which one you want, see if you can figure out what number it is, and then ask for that key for that cootie. You can also stay in the big dormitories that David is staying in. So you have plenty of options three weeks from now.

Phra Cathal: Yeah, for. For after the. After the Panza. That’s something. I’m just playing around a bit right now. You know, I’m. I’m not concrete on anything. And I haven’t even talked to Ajahn Mehdi about the fact that, yeah, I’m really enjoying seclusion and I don’t really want to go to another ceremony. But I’ll come. If you really want me to come, I’ll come. But not every. Every few days, please. But, you know, I’ll come now.

Dhammarato: And again you’re talking. You’re talking to him and looking at me. Is that it? Huh?

Phra Cathal: No, no, no. I just starve in my. In my.

Dhammarato: Okay, you’re talking, you’re talking to him when you say that you’re willing to come.

Phra Cathal: No, I am just How I. How I. What I would say or what I will say, probably.

Dhammarato: Okay. I’m trying to figure that out. Okay. So here is another way of doing it. Yeah, okay. There, here’s another way to do it. And that is that if you have a time that you know that he’s going to be coming, like he comes at about the same time when a day when he does come. And the good thing to do there is to make yourself really scarce. Don Kiem is a big place. I’ve been doing that places out in the wilderness of the. You can hang out in the sala, at the lake and other things like this. Okay. And he’ll get the message if he comes to your kuti to take you off someplace and you’re not there.

Phra Cathal: You know, I have. That’s exactly what I’ve been doing for weeks. And he doesn’t seem to get the message. So then I had to ask him after breakfast. I said, please may I practice alone for a few days? You know something? I. And then I went off on. On just about. Because one of the monks here, well, the only other monk here, he went into his Kuti for about 10 days or 11 days and didn’t come out. And I asked could I practice similarly to that. But he was fasting. And I said, I would like to go on Bindabad alone. I don’t want to fast alone for 10 days in my kuti. So I said, may I go on Bindabad too? And he said, all right.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Phra Cathal: So when I asked him, he said, okay. But he did not pick up on that message when I. When I was jumping around Kutis and okay. Never finding me and stuff like that.

Dhammarato: All right. So there’s other places that you can go and hang out. In fact, I would be interested in what you have to say about it. You know, Adam KM that there is an area that has hot springs.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Dhammarato: All right. And from that area of the hot springs is a path that will go up to the mountain. And that mountain actually has some caves in it in an open pit area. That would be a place to hang out. Also, you might in fact discover where the old path is because there was another path that on the other side of the mountain that takes you down to the concrete road that they built.

Phra Cathal: Yes. Thank you for reminding me about this. I completely forgot. And that’s a great idea, actually.

Dhammarato: Okay.

Phra Cathal: Because I. I read that a while.

Dhammarato: Ago with that you can go Pendabot.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Dhammarato: Around Don Kiem because there’s a lot of new buildings around there and you can Go bend about there and hang out in the, in the mountain if you want real seclusion. And you don’t even have to leave Don Kiem for that. But what I’m recommending is, is that find yourself scarce when Ajahn Meti is looking for you. Yeah, but that’s only three weeks from now. After that, you’ve got even broader choices.

Phra Cathal: Yeah, I haven’t really thought about too much. I was more sort of trying to figure out in within myself what is the real sense of, for me, the balance between getting involved in the whole community stuff or just sort of. I wouldn’t call them projects exactly, but for example, OSF project. But I have some things I do myself and some communities I do like that. But sometimes I find myself too mixed up and too meshed up with the people and all their blah, blah, blah. And sometimes I just want to come in and go out, but I stayed too long and I’m like, oh, you know, I need to go back out.

Dhammarato: But, you know, okay, well, now that you’re knowing that, you need to figure out when being around people too much and then you can take a hike. Let’s say that Ajahn Meti takes you someplace and in the middle of it, you can walk out and just take a walk.

Phra Cathal: Sometimes I feel like, you know, how many times have been thinking about just doing that, but in the back of my head, is this not like something offensive or is this something that they do, they take it personally? Because I remember I did that one time and it seemed to be live a really bad message. You know, I just got that sense right after I did that. Got this sort of immediate change in our relationship. Like I was sort of more on the outside at that point.

Dhammarato: But isn’t that what you’re asking? No, I was on the outside of all of these activities that Ajahn Metti is taking you on.

Phra Cathal: No, I mean, I meant like the, the act of just walking out or the act of just all right, peace and then just leaving. Is that something that the tie people into? Or maybe I would say, like, is that acceptable or up for admonishment in this sort of places? You know?

Dhammarato: Has Ajahn Metti actually admonished you? I don’t think so. He’s not that kind of guy. He.

Phra Cathal: He does it in a weird way. Like, for example, one time he asked me, okay, so after the meditations in the evening, sometimes we listen to Buddha Dasa talks and he asked me to play the Buddha Dasa thing. And then he asked me, do you want to stay here. And I said, no, I’m going to go to my kuti now. And then he said, no, you’re going to stay here with the community. And that was very shortly after I did do my own thing. Oh, it just came to my mind. I wanted to just mention one thing, but I just, after the end of that point is like, oh, yeah, like that. That act of just basically doing my own thing. Up until that point, I was always involved with everything. I was always saying, yes, okay, yes, I’m gonna go.

Dhammarato: Just do it.

Phra Cathal: Just try it. No problem. And I was in that attitude. And then suddenly I was like, all right, I’m just gonna come back into myself a bit and just go. Come back into my kind of way, or whatever you want to say. And then quickly after that, their attitude and relationship changed like that. It was like, no, you’re gonna stay in the community. Not exactly admonishment, but sort of pointing. Pointing to an admonishment. I would say, like, a little bit.

Dhammarato: Well, it depends. Okay, so what he said, it’s up to you. You can take it as an admonishment or not, because he was sort of in between. And you took it as an admonishment a bit.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Phra Cathal: Perceptions are tricky. I just don’t know sometimes.

Dhammarato: Yes, I know that’s what you’re saying. And so the easy way to handle that is to not be around when he comes looking for you.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dhammarato: And remember, you’ve still got only three weeks for Vasa or Panza to finish.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Phra Cathal: And, you know, I would. I would probably 100 stay here if the other monk was not leaving. But he is also going to leave my monk. We’re pretty good friends now. You know, we’re the same age, and he speaks good English from Bangkok. A Thai monk from Bangkok.

Dhammarato: Okay.

Phra Cathal: And we’re pretty good friends. And he’s leaving.

Dhammarato: And then where is he going to go?

Phra Cathal: Oh, I don’t know. He. He just sort of wants to keep exploring himself.

Dhammarato: Why don’t you ask him to go along? Why do I.

Phra Cathal: I never even thought about that, to be honest with you. I do need to give that a bit of thought, that those things. I have, like, a strong intuitive feeling what to do, and then I have my sort of what you should do.

Dhammarato: You’ve heard me talk about that before, huh?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Dhammarato: The distinction between what you want to do and what you should do. And now you’re using ajahn meti as an excuse for what you should do.

Phra Cathal: Yeah.

Dhammarato: You’re putting parent, parental posturing on him that may not necessarily be there.

Phra Cathal: Yeah, I’ve noticed this.

Dhammarato: I’ve noticed that he’s not your daddy.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Phra Cathal: It just automatically projects whenever there’s an authority figure around. It’s very strange. I have to really be careful with that sort of thing. I do that a lot still.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Phra Cathal: And I. It’s tricky to get out of that actually.

Dhammarato: Even though I’m super aware it takes mindfulness. It’s not trickiness.

Phra Cathal: Yeah, true, true.

Dhammarato: Is to pay attention when you’re putting him in a position that he doesn’t belong in because of your habits.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Phra Cathal: And it’s totally just within me. He’s not really like that at all. He’s just sort of a quiet guy who does his own thing and then.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Dhammarato: So he’s well skilled at being a quiet guy doing his own thing. Learn that for yourself.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Phra Cathal: Oh, there’s a few things I need to a little bit reflect on here. And one thing that came into my mind that I did want to talk to you about is the whole. The whole individual. So like my. I. I really do notice my Western conditioning a lot and I do notice myself slipping into it a lot too. And I’m surprised at how firm it is sometimes the individual. I’m doing things my way. I really find it hard to be in the mesh myself into the. The actual environment experience like the, the people around me. And how do you. I remember you phrased. At one time you talked about fitting in, basically fitting in with the Thai people, basically. Something on. Along those lines.

Dhammarato: Yes. This one thing that I have seen that very, very few Westerners are actually capable of doing and sometimes it takes a long time. One of the few people that I know that has been able to fit into the Thai community very well is Achon Sumedo.

Phra Cathal: Oh, yeah.

Dhammarato: Okay. But I do not know of many others. Santa Carl, for instance, he never quite fit in at Watson Mok, but he did manage to gather up a good community of Thai people when he was in Bangkok. But it does take some time to begin to see Thai people as Thai people, not weird Westerners. The Thailand is a different world.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Dhammarato: And things are different here. And it takes some observation to see what things are like.

Phra Cathal: I can’t really sense why it’s so difficult sometimes to get to fall into their structure. It’s like the structure I have is quite like a wall. And there’s no.

Dhammarato: Let us say that it’s a very, very well developed habit. And you can think of that wall or you can actually think about it in the sense of a well worn path.

Phra Cathal: Yeah.

Dhammarato: Sometimes you have to get off of your old path, your old way of doing things. And also here’s the point that in fact I think in some ways that you don’t have so much trouble with it because in the west, the western system is very hierarchical in the sense that you’ve got to climb, you’ve got to make a name for yourself. You’ve got to, you know, to work at it and grow and change and all of this kind of stuff to where the whole system of the time mentality is learn your station and learn to fit in that you’re in a network.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Dhammarato: Not a hierarchy.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Dhammarato: Okay. So that’s the easy way to start to see. And this is in a way of what a chan meti is training you for, is training you to fit in and become tying. And in a way you’re kind of resisting that rather than just going along with it.

Phra Cathal: I was going along with it, but it’s like. Oh, it’s very. It brings up a lot of stuff and I feel like I need a little bit break sometimes from that constant.

Dhammarato: Well, a little bit of a break. Okay. Yeah, yeah. You have a little bit of a break every day.

Phra Cathal: Oh yeah, yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah. I have no schedule or no job or anything like that. Yeah, true. Yeah, yeah, true. It’s. There’s a. For me there’s like a different like quality of break when I have this experience I have right now where I have no. Oh yeah. Like I can just sit in my cootie for a few days. I. It’s like a relief in the mind. That’s definitely different than the general experience of the day to day life of the monastery. It’s a, it’s a different. Yeah, a different quality of sort of taking a break. It’s like my mind really. It’s very blissful is what I’m saying. And it’s very nice to recharge or I don’t know, not recharge, but it’s a deeper recharge. You know, I really was like, can you get your.

Dhammarato: Here’s the interesting question. Can you get yourself into that retired state, that easy state. State and still go along with Ajahn Meti and maintain that place of quietude even though you’re riding in the car and even though that he’s put you around Thai people, you’re not able to do that yet.

Phra Cathal: That is my number one. Like, I wouldn’t call it a goal, but that is always in my. You know, my.

Dhammarato: Well, he’s giving you an opportunity to practice that now, isn’t he?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Phra Cathal: It’s over.

Dhammarato: Just sit there and hang out. Ajahn Poh used to do that to me, by the way. You wouldn’t believe how many places he’s taken me. And my only job was to do nothing. It’s just to be there with the other monks when you’re with monks or be with the lay people when you’re the lay people and do nothing. Just sit quietly. Don’t want. Don’t expect. Don’t want it to be over. Find that solitude in your kuti and then go with a chan meti in that solitude. This is a very important thing that I’m talking about now.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dhammarato: As you go into seclusion and get your solitude, and then bring that solitude out with you. When you go out with him.

Phra Cathal: In many ways, I think I get a little attached to how. How sweet this solitude is. I mean, it. It’s really sweet to do everything. Like what I’m doing now. Like, get. I just walk out in the morning, I’m bindabat alone. I get all my food for myself, and then I come back here, and it’s just so. It’s really nice. And then.

Dhammarato: Okay, so continue with that. And when you get roped into going with him.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Dhammarato: Then maintain that solitude instead of saying, oh, no, I’ve got to go with him, and I can’t have any solitude.

Phra Cathal: Now, I know that’s another unwholesome thought. I’ve. I have seen this whole game more and more and more and more, you know, the. Where the duka is really coming from. But, yeah, yeah, it’s just seeing that more and more and more. Suppose.

Dhammarato: That, like I said, when I was out with a Ajahn Poh, I really didn’t have anything to do. Now, there was a couple of times when, yes, I did have to help an elderly monk come down the mountain. But that was, you know, that was the reason that we had gone to that monk was because he needed to be taken care of by other monks. But that was a marvelous relationship. His name was Ajahn Lee, and he was a marvelous character. And I learned a lot from him, mainly because he spoke English. But I. He became friends with me because I helped him. But I helped him because Ajahn Poh asked me to go with him and help this monk. But other than that, every time that I ever went out with Ajahn Poh, it was kind of a training in the sense of, can you just do nothing while I’m doing my business, but I’ve got a great big package that I’m carrying around called Amarato. And. And it’s a whole lot easier to deal with when it’s not squirming.

Phra Cathal: If I’m being honest. I have been squirming a lot. So maybe you’re. Maybe I do need to keep reminding myself to cool off, even when I’m just. Yeah, just keep practicing in these places. But there’s always that ideal I have of what you’re saying, and I’ll bring it in, and then I’ll. It starts to play out in real life, and I’m like, but you have.

Dhammarato: To remember to not squirm.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Dhammarato: You have to remember, hey, I don’t. Achran Metti has got me to teach me a lesson to stop squirming even when he’s taking me around.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Dhammarato: And so thank him for that. Thank. Thank him for taking you. And you don’t have to have your solitude. Once you start to practice your solitude, you don’t have to take the solitude into the Kuti and keep it there. You can start taking that solitude wherever you go. That eventually you’ll learn to take your solitude even through a funeral. Fair enough.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Phra Cathal: I’ve been a bit ungrateful, but I can definitely, definitely recognize the help and so on.

Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.

Phra Cathal: Sometimes, like, he. Sometimes I’m like, I really don’t want help, and I feel a little bit ungrateful and stuff like that. But it’s been very. Been very helpful. But I guess it’s my habit of resisting. My habit of. Yeah, resisting probably the other people’s way of doing things. I just don’t want to do it.

Dhammarato: Yeah. So you. You’ve got that western mountain to climb if you got to get that solitude. And I, Chad, Maddie is teaching you. Just fit in and cool off. Just do nothing to do. So you’re with the other people. Yeah, they’re chattering, but you’re not chattering. You can put down that squirming that you’ve got by remembering that, hey, he’s taking me out to teach me to stop squirming, stop being dissatisfied that he’s taking you out and just go along with it and just chill.

Phra Cathal: I know everything you’re saying is true.

Dhammarato: We’ve gone through that before, more or less.

Phra Cathal: Yeah.

Dhammarato: Yeah.

Phra Cathal: Less always has been. But I guess it’s always the skill issue and so on. But it is what it is. I mean, it’s just.

Dhammarato: Well, he’s giving you the opportunity to develop that skill now, isn’t he?

Phra Cathal: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Dhammarato: All you have to do is remember to practice to stop squirming.

Phra Cathal: It’s also weird sometimes. Just a weird. And I remember a few weeks ago, you asked everybody, what’s your favorite unwholesome? What? What is your favorite unwholesome thought? Something like that. You asked everybody and yeah, there is a. There is a certain pleasure. I wouldn’t call it pleasure, but there’s a certain enjoyment. Like a.

Dhammarato: Yes, okay, I got you. I know what you’re talking about.

Phra Cathal: Out of doing everything my way.

Dhammarato: Like, that’s the Western mentality. Americans have got a whole lot worse case of it than you do. They have even a piece of paper they call the Declaration of Independence to where the Irish have been trying to out under squirm the rule of the monarchy.

Speaker C: Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Phra Cathal: It’s the enjoyment of rebellion.

Dhammarato: Exactly. It’s delicious. Rebellion is delicious.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Dhammarato: And it’s dangerous. Can you learn to not. It’s hot. Exactly. That’s part of the nature.

Phra Cathal: I know. It’s dukkha. It’s. It’s God damn d. I know it is.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Dhammarato: So now that you’ve identified that it is delicious to rebel and that’s what you’ve been practicing, and that’s in fact the squirming is rebelling against having really to do nothing but doing it in the environment that he’s created rather than in the seclusion of your kuti. And by the way, if you spend enough time in your kuti, you’ll rebel against that too.

Phra Cathal: I think. I think that’s been always the case in money, Rose.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Phra Cathal: Yeah.

Dhammarato: Well, you know, I think this has been a pretty productive talk for you.

Phra Cathal: Yeah, I feel like I got a lot of value of this. I really appreciate this call, actually.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Phra Cathal: Appreciate this. I’ll see. Yeah. I mean, Vasa’s or Panza, Vasa is ending in three weeks, so.

Dhammarato: I’ll see what happens. What you gonna do when Vasa ends for you? But I think that they’re talking something else. What you’re gonna do when Vasa ends for you. And the answer to that is right now I’m learning how to chill. Right now I’m learning how to not squirm. Right now I’m learning to not rebel. And when I get not rebelling and not squirming down pretty good, it doesn’t matter where you go for Vasa, like I said, you’ve got huge number of options. I’ve got at least three options. Here on this island. You’ve got lots of options at Watsonoke and you can stay right there at Dam Kiem under the tutelage and training of a Chan Meti. And you can go follow that other monk when he leaves. Look at how many options you’ve got. Stay, go, go, stay.

Phra Cathal: That’s this. I had this trouble when I was. Since I was a kid. I go to like a candy shop and I just, I could be there for an hour or two. I just can’t make up my mind. So many good options. I mean as a monk it’s, it’s sweet. I mean it’s everywhere. I could just walk anywhere, go anywhere I want. But this situation is pretty nice. Yeah. I mean in, in terms of like the. How, you know, the day to day life is very, very nice. But everywhere I pretty much see it out everywhere I go now. So yeah, I mean, I don’t know. Yeah, let’s see how it goes. I mean I haven’t really talked too much about. Was more in getting my feeling on the involvement in people and then coming back into myself. And you know what actually sparked me to ask you that was I listened to Bishop. I don’t know if you know who this is, but Bishop Fulton Sheen.

Dhammarato: Yes, yes. Old dude.

Speaker C: Yes.

Dhammarato: Long time ago. Yes.

Phra Cathal: I think he was actually born in the 19th century. 1895. He was born in 1895. So it is a long time ago. And I was listening to one of his sort of, I don’t know, talks sermons and about the.

Dhammarato: He used to be on television in America.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Dhammarato: He’s some from somewhere in the Midwest, Missouri or something like that.

Phra Cathal: I think so. I don’t know about that. But he was talking about the, the. The direction of religion is going away from the community into the individual. So now, I mean in the Christian context or Catholics or whatever that it was, everybody gathered together.

Dhammarato: Yes, exactly. That’s what the church means, is community gathered together. And in fact you could use in the correct sense of the word, church is another word for the word Sangha.

Speaker C: Yes, yes.

Dhammarato: The community.

Speaker C: Yes.

Phra Cathal: And. Yeah, yeah, Sangha.

Dhammarato: The seclusion and Sangha. Seclusion in Sangha.

Speaker C: Yes.

Phra Cathal: And this is what I was, what I was sort of getting in myself is he was talking about the movement of that community is now. He noticed now with the next generation it was going into the individual, that everything was becoming about the individual. And he saw Manny, he saw, he started. Well, he asked a question to the people. He said something about what is it for you? Or what is it for man’s inner need, for his transcendence, and against the involvement in the community. Where’s the balance for man’s inner need for his own transcendence? And where is the balance for his need with the community? How do you balance that to that pendulum? How do you. How do you keep it smooth without always being a community, always too caught up in.

Dhammarato: So that question, though, is not a philosophical question and it’s not a one time shot. That question is the question that you need to ask yourself moment by moment. When you’re with a Chan Meti out there stumping for the Dhamma the way he does, can you find your seclusion and can you find your sangha there rather than rebellion there?

Speaker C: Yes.

Dhammarato: Warming there?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Phra Cathal: It would just be sort of. I guess it would be like just a view if I came up with a how it should be rather than the noble viewing of what’s actually happening in that case. But I mean, a very. I don’t know, for some reason I felt like I need a little. I needed some guidance on that.

Dhammarato: Well, you’ve just gotten it now. You can do your own guidance. You can remember a potential sheen in that question. And then when you get restless and you get rebellious and you start to squirm, when Ajahn met, he’s got you out, and you start longing for, I want to be back in the Kuti, I want into seclusion. Recognize that you can bring that seclusion right in there, right then and there.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Dhammarato: And also once you gain that seclusion again, which might not take you more than a breath or two, and then you can go back into Sangha with whatever he’s doing and in Sangha there with whatever group he’s got.

Speaker C: Oh, yeah.

Phra Cathal: Yeah. Okay. Well, something else came to mind, but I don’t think I’ll. I’ll hop into it too far.

Dhammarato: All right, well, why don’t we finish this and we’ll let you hop into that question a little bit later.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Dhammarato: All right. So this is where you find the balance is. The balance is not in the activity that you’re doing. The balance is within your mind. Can you balance between sangha and seclusion depending upon the circumstances, without rebelling against one and then the other?

Phra Cathal: Yeah. God is such a habit. I love it. I don’t know why, I just love it. But I need to see the danger in it more and more. Or I can. I can see the danger in rebellion. It’s all part of my identity. I don’t know.

Dhammarato: You’re a good friend, Cat. I really enjoy talking with you.

Phra Cathal: Thank you, davarato. I really appreciate the advice and whatever.

Dhammarato: All right, well, we’ll see you later.

Phra Cathal: All right, See you. Bye.

Summary of this Dhamma Talk

Dhammarato discusses with Phra Cathal the challenge of finding balance between solitude and community life in Thai monasticism. The conversation explores how Western conditioning can lead to resistance and rebellion against community involvement, and how to transform that into practice opportunity. Dhammarato emphasizes the importance of maintaining inner solitude even while engaging in community activities, suggesting that true practice isn’t about physical isolation but about maintaining peace regardless of circumstances.

Outline of this Dhamma Talk

Balance Between Seclusion and Community Life

• Finding balance between solitude in one’s kuti and participating in community activities
• Learning to maintain inner solitude even while engaging with others
• Recognizing and working with the “delicious” but dangerous habit of rebellion
• Understanding the difference between Western hierarchical thinking vs Thai network mentality

The Training Under Ajahn Mehdi

• Learning to “fit in” rather than always doing things one’s own way
• Understanding that being taken around is an opportunity for practice
• Importance of “not squirming” while participating in community activities
• Learning to maintain peaceful mind while being involved in various activities

Options After Vasa/Panza

• Multiple options for practice locations discussed (Wat Suan Mok, Don Kiem, etc.)
• Various kutis and practice spaces available
• Importance of focusing on current practice rather than future plans

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