I See You Fear Agnes 09 23 24

Video

Transcript

Dhammarato: Okay, so first, first off, you’re reading out of the Therigatha.

Agnes: Yeah.

Agnes: I can read this part that I don’t really understand. I guess it’s like Mara, the evil one, is coming to the Bhikkhuni Upa lava, and she replies to him in verses and she says…

Dhammarato: Before we go any further, let’s stop there and do that much. Let’s talk about that much. Okay, okay. In the Therigatha, by the way, we can say that the Terry actually is the word for thera, for man, and terry is for females. And the word thera means the elder. So we’re talking about the elderly monks or the elderly nuns in this case and their poetry. Yeah, and this, this document, by the way, is one of the oldest documents in existence that is actually quite much older than the Majumenikaya. Then this stuff was written during the lifetime of the Buddha. Okay, okay, that’s a good point to know is because. And it’s going to sound a little bit primitive. Okay, so now they’re talking about Mara, the evil one. And people who read things literally, like Christians, when they’ve got a devil in the Christian Bible, they think it’s a dude that’s got wings and whatnot like that. But this is a metaphor for our own unwholesome evil thoughts. Okay. So when the, the, the nun has the Mara, the evil one come to her and speaks, it’s actually her own thoughts that he’s speaking, but it’s as a metaphor for her own, her own thinking. So now that we’ve got that much, read that again and continue on.

Agnes: Mm. Though a hundred thousand rogues just like you might come here. I stir not a hair. I feel no terror even alone. Mara, I don’t fear you. I can make. This is the part I don’t really understand. Perhaps because it’s a metaphor. I don’t know. I can make myself disappear or I can enter inside your belly. I can stand between your eyebrows, yet you won’t catch a glimpse of me. I am the master of my own mind. The basis of power are well developed. I am freed from every kind of bondage. Therefore I don’t fear you, friend.

Dhammarato: Okay, so this is an important thing. That last part is when she says that she has a well developed mind. Okay, read that part again because that’s the. What. This is the point of it. I’ve got a well developed mind.

Agnes: Let’s see. I am the master of my own mind.

Dhammarato: Right, Exactly. So she’s actually speaking the lion’s roar Right there. I am the master of my own mind. Okay, go ahead.

Agnes: The basis of power are well developed.

Dhammarato: Okay, so she’s saying that she’s got a powerful mind, that the bases of power are developed now that she’s the master of her own mind.

Agnes: Yeah.

Dhammarato: Okay. She’s a theri for sure. This is theri, language. This is the lion’s roar this woman is giving out. Okay?

Agnes: So I am freed from every kind of bondage.

Dhammarato: Yes. Freedom from every kind of bondage. Nothing can tie me down. Why? Because I have that power of the mind, that I have mastered the mind. And so nothing can tie me down.

Agnes: Yeah.

Agnes: Therefore, I don’t fear you, friend.

Dhammarato: Right. Therefore I’m not afraid of you. I’m not afraid of unwholesome thoughts because I know that I’m the conqueror here and that I’ll make friends with my own mind.

Agnes: Yeah.

Dhammarato: Okay, so now let’s go back up to the beginning part of it where the Mara makes an entrance. What did he say when he came in?

Agnes: He said, having gone to a sala tree with flowering top, you stand at its foot all alone. Bhikkhuni, there is none whose beauty can rival your own. Foolish girl. Have you no fear of rogues? And there was.

Dhammarato: Okay, so here’s what she’s saying. She has the thought that it must be dangerous out here in the woods because a rogue is in fact a man who is going to come and molest her for her beauty. So this is the thought that the woman the Bhikkhuni has is that, oh, I should fear men because I’m so beautiful. Okay, but she’s putting it in the mouth of Mara, which is actually a metaphor for one’s own mind. So in other words, what she’s actually doing here is she’s saying, I see you, Mara. I see you. I see that thought that I just had of it may be dangerous here. I’m beautiful and those rogues are going to come and molest me. And then when she had that thought, she says, hot dog. I see that. And I’m the master of my mind. I have the power, and therefore I am not going to be afraid.

Agnes: Yeah, yeah.

Dhammarato: That’s quite beautiful. I like that one. That’s a good one.

Agnes: Yeah, isn’t it? But this in the middle, I started thinking of something you’ve been saying before, that you said something like, I am not what you define me as. You are missing the target and I’m so much more than what other people define me as.

Dhammarato: Right, exactly. Okay, so let’s just Take that now that when she had the thought that all the men are going to come and molest me, then the new thought is that, no, I am much more than that. Okay? So you can understand in fact that this kind of thought. Now remember that she’s a theory. She has been a Bhikkhuni for more than 20 years.

Agnes: Yeah.

Dhammarato: Okay, so this is an important point then, that she’s not a young chick anymore. Now the young girls are taught to be afraid to don’t go out in the woods by yourself. There may be dangerous men out there, Rogues, Ambin. Okay. And so now she’s, as an elderly lady, she’s having that thought of, oh, I’m a beautiful young girl and the rogues are going to come bother me here. And then she says, aha, I see that thought and I am powerful now. Okay. And I’m much more than this young girl who is afraid of men when I’m alone.

Agnes: Yeah.

Dhammarato: And this is exactly. She’s practicing exactly the way that you should be practicing when you have those thoughts of oh no, this is dangerous. You can say, wait a minute, I’m a mature sociologist, I know what this is all about. This is just a scary thought that I’ve given myself. But I’ve got a strong mind, I’m a master of my mind and I’m much more than that.

Agnes: Okay.

Agnes: That’s the greatness of being. Getting older.

Dhammarato: Yes. Right. Being old is being free.

Agnes: Yes.

Dhammarato: From all of the childhood terrors that we have built up.

Agnes: Yes.

Agnes: Yeah, it’s, it’s like uh huh, yeah, well, yeah, so it actually, yeah, there’s the language again for me about. But I think I’m starting to get it. But it’s also in my own process, of course, of understanding things. I’ve been reading it many times and a long time ago and I didn’t get it. It was just words for me.

Agnes: Yeah.

Dhammarato: No, now you can get it. Now you can understand it, what she’s doing. She’s sitting out in the woods and she had a thought of terror. Oh, they’re going to come get me. And then she says, aha, I see you, Mara. Yeah, that’s Mara talking to me.

Agnes: Yeah.

Dhammarato: Which is just the unwholesome part of my own mind.

Agnes: Yeah.

Dhammarato: Then she repeats to herself that she’s strong, she’s powerful, she’s the master of her own mind. She’s so much more than that and that she’s not afraid.

Agnes: Yeah.

Dhammarato: So she’s dealing with her fear and probably. And she’s probably. Well experienced at dealing with her fear. And so she just wrote this down as kind of a poem. It’s probably quite beautiful poetically in the. In the pali. But when it’s translated into English it. We lose the beauty of the poetic.

Agnes: But still English is a lot better than Swedish. It’s so much richer language, the English. So it’s. Yeah. So maybe I started to see how my fears finally in a way have started to fall away. It’s been doing it all along, but now there has been some more, I don’t know, some kind of profound thing happening. And I almost got scared about that. How do I know, how do I know now what to do, you know, when I don’t have that fear, it was just.

Dhammarato: Ah, but that’s an important point because you see, the residue is I’ve got to do something.

Agnes: Yeah.

Dhammarato: The reality though is that what do I do now has an easy, easy answer to it when it’s noble. And that is I’ve got to do. All I have to do is to see that fear and it goes away immediately. I’m a powerful girl here, I can handle that. There’s nothing to be afraid of. Ooh, what a relief it is.

Agnes: Yeah.

Dhammarato: There’S nothing to do. And so that’s for you also is that once you see those fears you can say, wow, I’m glad I see that. And then just let them fall out. Yeah, there’s really nothing to be afraid of. It was just a thought. And look how fast the fear will come when a thought like that comes. Oh, I’m here in the woods alone and I’m so beautiful. I’m so gorgeous. All the rogues are going to come mess with me. Oh, terror, terror.

Agnes: Yeah.

Dhammarato: And then we feel bad immediately, but she woke up in right then and says, haha, I’m a powerful lady now. I’ve got a strong mind and I’m much more than that beautiful young girl who’s full of fear. I am not afraid. I can make friends with these rogues. I can make friends even with Mara.

Agnes: Yeah, yeah.

Agnes: That’s really, really beautiful for me to see because this has been a big part of me all my life. That kind of thinking and being because of that.

Dhammarato: Yes, I know your history. We’ve well discussed it.

Agnes: Yeah.

Dhammarato: So I can see that this is actually a really excellent poem for you.

Agnes: Mm. Okay. Okay.

Dhammarato: This is really excellent.

Agnes: I start now I started thinking about when I first started talking to you like you were having. You were talking about some. A track coming towards one and to just step aside and watch, you know, like, it feels like I got that too. That came up and I didn’t get it at that time. I didn’t get the metaphor or I didn’t understand what that was about, really.

Dhammarato: And so here you can see in this poem that she’s just stepping aside. That thought of always terror is dangerous out here. The rogues may come. And she just said, set that aside. It’s just nothing, just a thought. And I really am not afraid.

Agnes: Yeah, I’m. Sometimes I might get it in my mind, but I don’t really get it. So to say, I don’t understand, know it. You know, there’s a difference here for me, when I just. It’s to start to start thinking like that, but then I. I feel there’s something missing here. I don’t really get it.

Dhammarato: Well, here’s how you can. You can remember. Whenever you become afraid, you can remember this poem. Remember it closely. And with the thought of this, Bhikkhuni is not afraid when she’s out in the woods. I am not afraid. Right here, right now. I am not afraid that Bhikkhuni was not afraid. I’m not afraid.

Agnes: Yeah.

Dhammarato: And just keep telling yourself you’re not afraid.

Agnes: Yeah.

Dhammarato: And that fear will just fall away.

Agnes: Yeah.

Dhammarato: Wow, what a relief it is. I’m not afraid anymore.

Agnes: Yeah. Yeah. Is there also. Because it seems to be kind of like two ways or how to say it, that things have gradually diminished. Those fears have diminished. But now it was some kind of. I don’t know what to call it, turning point, some bigger thing just happening. It was just gone. And I started seeing. It doesn’t come up like before. Is it what’s happening?

Dhammarato: Yes, that’s. That’s the reflection that I’ve heard some of the senior monks talk about. Chan Samado talks about that. That. Wow, I don’t do that anymore.

Agnes: Yeah.

Agnes: Yeah.

Dhammarato: Wow. I haven’t been afraid of men in so long.

Agnes: Yeah.

Dhammarato: I’m not afraid of them anymore. And I didn’t even realize it. It wasn’t a thought. Another one exactly like that would be, wow, it’s been so long since I’ve been angry. I haven’t been angry. And so I don’t even remember the last time that I was angry.

Agnes: That came first for me. That came quite a long time ago. It was like, oh, I’m not angry. I don’t react. I’m not bothered even, you know. And it’s like, people don’t believe that because you, of course, you get angry in this situation. And it’s not there. But the fear has been going on.

Dhammarato: Well, now, that’s another thing you can say yourself. The anger is gone. Let this fear be gone, too, Just like I have. No longer. I have any anger now. No longer have any fear.

Agnes: Yeah. Yeah.

Dhammarato: And pretty soon, you won’t even have to think about it. And then a year from now or so, you reflect. Oh. You know, I haven’t had any fear since the last time I talked to Damarato. It’s gone now.

Agnes: Yeah, it’s.

Dhammarato: I haven’t seen it.

Agnes: It’s. Yeah, I’m kind of blown out by things like this. It’s like, how can it even happen, you know?

Dhammarato: Yes. The dharma is that profound, people don’t believe that it actually works. And here you are, an example of being free from fear. And now you’re going to be free from. I mean, free from anger. And now you’re going to be free from fear.

Agnes: Yeah.

Agnes: Yeah.

Dhammarato: Just like this. Bikuni, she says, this is it. I’m finished with this stuff. There’s no reason to have any thoughts that these guys are going to come bother me. Yeah, I can handle that. I’ll make friends with them.

Agnes: Yeah.

Agnes: Yeah.

Dhammarato: So congratulations.

Agnes: Thank you.

Dhammarato: I’m really pleased with you, Agnes. You’re making great progress. Good for you.

Agnes: It’s thanks to you.

Dhammarato: You did all the work, though. You’re the one who stopped doing the work and started just living your life happily.

Agnes: Yeah, I guess so. But I did get it from somewhere. I didn’t know that was possible before I came in contact with you. And there was.

Dhammarato: Look at it like this, beautiful music. Let us name something like the violin concerto, Beethoven’s Violin Concerto in D. He wrote the violin piece. He wrote the music. But it’s the performer who is on stage who gets the credit for it. Because they put in the work to learn that piece of music and to play it beautifully for the crowd. So look at me as the composer. But you’re the one who’s playing the music.

Agnes: Okay?

Dhammarato: And, in fact, I’m not even the composer. I just gave you the script. The composer was the Buddha.

Agnes: Yeah, yeah.

Dhammarato: And I gave you the script, and you learned the music.

Agnes: Yeah.

Dhammarato: So congratulations go to you, not to me. I’m just a delivery boy.

Agnes: Yeah, but it takes some skill to be able to deliver.

Dhammarato: Yes, it does take a lot of skill to deliver. I. None of that.

Agnes: Yes. Yeah, that’s it. I don’t have any more questions right now, so.

Dhammarato: Oh, excellent. Well, call me the next time. I mean, that’s a good book that you’re reading. It’s full of really good stuff.

Agnes: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dhammarato: It’s not long, but it’s profound. And every one of them is written by a dairy.

Agnes: Yeah.

Dhammarato: And so she knows. So that’s a really good book for you. Congratulations.

Agnes: Thank you.

Dhammarato: All right.

Agnes: Thank you so much.

Agnes: Thank you.

Dhammarato: All right, Agnes, we’ll see you later.

Agnes: Yeah, Bye.

Dhammarato: Okay, bye.

Summary of this Dhamma Talk

Dhammarato explores a passage from the Therigatha where a Buddhist nun confronts her fears through recognizing and transcending unwholesome thoughts. The talk weaves together ancient wisdom with modern application, showing how recognition of fear leads to liberation. Through dialogue with his student Agnes, Dhammarato demonstrates how the dharma can transform deep-seated fears and anger into freedom and peace, emphasizing the power of seeing our thoughts clearly rather than trying to “do” something about them.

Outline of this Dhamma Talk

Understanding the Therigatha Text

• Ancient text from Buddha’s time, older than Majjhima Nikaya
• Features poetry from elderly nuns (Theris)
• Mara represents unwholesome thoughts, not literal evil being

The Bhikkhuni’s Response to Fear

• Recognizes fearful thoughts about being alone and vulnerable
• Declares mastery over her own mind
• Demonstrates freedom from bondage and fear
• Shows transformation from youthful fear to elderly wisdom

The Power of Recognition and Liberation

• Importance of seeing unwholesome thoughts as they arise
• Freedom that comes with age and wisdom
• No need to “do” anything once fear is recognized
• Relief in letting go of fear completely

Personal Application (Agnes’s Journey)

• Parallel between ancient text and modern experience
• Gradual diminishing of fears over time
• Sudden profound realization of freedom from fear
• Similar to previous liberation from anger

Teaching Through Metaphor

• Like stepping aside from an oncoming track
• Like a violin concerto - Buddha as composer, teacher as delivery, student as performer
• Importance of direct experience over intellectual understanding

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