On Feelings of Loss and Betrayal Nick S 1 12 06 24

Video

Transcript

Dhammarato: I use it recording. I don’t see it on my phone.

Nick: Let’s go.

Dhammarato: Well, I guess some people could say the ultimate betrayal is divorce. Because don’t they walk down the aisle and then commit death? So you part and the divorce says, wait a minute. Nothing is forever. Everything changes. Hearts, minds, bodies, sometimes even genders. So what you’re complaining about is your lack of ability to see the changes when they’re happening, that you get caught in retrospect, in the sense that you said, I think at all. It’s this way. We’re, in fact, a long time ago, it changed to that.

Nick: It’s been like six months, eight months, Something like that.

Dhammarato: So are you actually saying something like she left you?

Nick: Yeah, she did leave me, but she just said that she didn’t want to be with anyone and she was happy being alone. And then with the modern age, I checked up on her, and then she was talking about how happy she was with someone else. I just wasn’t able to get back into any kind of good feelings. It feels horrible.

Dhammarato: So she was lying to you, huh?

Nick: I guess.

Dhammarato: You guess?

Nick: Well, I guess it has to be.

Dhammarato: Sure about it now, huh? What?

Nick: I guess it has to be a lion, if that’s the truth. But what she said wasn’t true. I guess it was like.

Dhammarato: Have you ever met a human being that didn’t lie?

Nick: No.

Dhammarato: Do you know that humans are trained liars? And they’re trained when they’re still in diapers, except. Except for cops and CIA, and they get really trained. But most people are. Are not very skilled at lying, even though they’ve been trained at it. And that. Oh, what can you say? Maybe we can call it something like telltale remarks. Telltale. You know what I’m talking about. There are signs, but we don’t see those signs because we’re not looking.

Nick: Yeah.

Dhammarato: And so now what are you left with? Bunch of bad feelings.

Nick: And, like, recurring memories.

Dhammarato: Pardon?

Nick: Recurring flashbacks. Over and over again. I didn’t say a lot of, like, recurring flashbacks, just, like, continuously coming up.

Dhammarato: Yeah.

Nick: Over again.

Dhammarato: Yeah. Huh. Well, I’m glad that you can see that. Can you. Can you stop it?

Nick: I. I’ve been trying a lot of different ways, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t work, so I.

Dhammarato: Well, when it doesn’t work. Never mind. Start again. So right now you’re. How do you say it? Feeling sorry for yourself. Oh, poor me. I thought I had her, and now I don’t. I’ve lost it. But can you accept the fact that you never really had her in the first place. She didn’t even have her. If she’s out of control, how can you control her? You can’t. You never did. You never really owned. Or you never really had her in the first place. That’s part of your delusion. Pardon?

Nick: That’s how it felt. Felt so fragile the whole time, like, I can’t believe that it’s happening and then it’s gone. So.

Dhammarato: Well, let’s fast forward into the future. And you’ve been married to her for 75 years, and then she croaks on you. How you going to feel then? Same as you do now.

Nick: Probably worse.

Dhammarato: Yeah, that was marriage vows. And so death do you part. And I didn’t want her to die. She did anyway. So in a way, you’re lucky because you found out early.

Nick: Yeah.

Dhammarato: Because you can handle good bad feelings as a young man a whole lot better than you can handle a whole lot of bad feelings when you’re an old man.

Nick: Why is that?

Dhammarato: Well, nobody ever gets used to having bad feelings. They always seem brand new. But statistics shows that one of the. You know that there’s a difference in. In longevity between men and women. You know that already, you know. Pardon?

Nick: I can feel my life shortening.

Dhammarato: Yeah. Well, one. One of the contributing causes to that is, is that when a husband dies, the wife continues on. She still has her family, she still has her friends. But when the wife dies, husbands generally die very soon after that, like within a year or two. They can’t handle it.

Nick: That would be me.

Dhammarato: Maybe it’s something on the order of I can’t live without her. So they don’t. So the first question that I have for you in reality, then is, can you live without her? Can you?

Nick: Yes.

Dhammarato: All right. Have you heard the song? Have you heard the song? I got along without her before I met her. I can get along without her now ¹, like we were talking about. You can get along without her. You got along without her before you met her, you can get along without her now. You didn’t feel this bad without her before you met her. You didn’t even know her then. So why are you feeling bad now? You didn’t have her then, you don’t have her now. What’s the difference? The only difference is, is your bad feelings.

Nick: And the memories.

Dhammarato: Well, where do you think the bad feelings come from? If you didn’t have those memories, you wouldn’t have those bad feelings now, would you? So what you can do is you can substitute those memories with the song I Got Along Without Her. Before I met her, I can get along without her. Now.

Nick: What. What do you think about, like, I was talking to some people and they were also saying that, well, this is kind of more like like investigation into the feelings.

Dhammarato: Yes, but you needed to investigate that before she left you. And how many times do you have to investigate those feelings or investigate those memories before you recognize that they are hurt? How much investigation do you have to do?

Nick: So what I was doing is when I, like, would get some kind of horrible body pain, I would try to relax as much as I can and like maybe put my hand on the spot, try to take deeper breaths into that position. But that feels like I’m paying attention to it versus the song, which is kind of more like gladdening.

Dhammarato: It is true that some people who call themselves teachers of. They call themselves Buddhists, basically. But basically, here’s the point. Let me give you this analogy. Perhaps you’ve heard about it. You’re walking down the sidewalk and walking down the sidewalk, you see a pile of dog turd right in front of you, right? You’ve heard this before. Are you going to pick up that dog turd and take it to your kitchen and dissect it and look at it and inspect it and powder it and blend it and fry it? Are you going to see it on the pavement and just step around it? The investigation that’s needed is to see those thoughts and those feelings and those memories are painful. That’s all the investigation you need.

Nick: It’s painful. And now it’s time to gladden the mind.

Dhammarato: That’s. That’s what I’ve been doing with you. That’s what I’ve been doing with you is helping you to gladden the mind. You can do without her. And you need to say that to yourself rather than going and having those feelings, oh, I saw her then and she looked really sexy and I wish I had her now. And you don’t. And oh, I like that dish she cooked me and it was delicious and she served it with a smile and now she don’t.

Nick: Well, that never happened.

Dhammarato: How many times do you have to remember recognizing that those memories hurt? And they hurt because you want. You want something you don’t have. And if you can investigate it to the point of seeing that you want her and you can’t have her, that’s liberating because otherwise you’re stuck in. I want her. I want her. I’m investigating how bad I want her and I still want her. And I investigate. That’s not freedom. In fact, that’s stupidity. Worse still, you can actually call it the Mahasi method.

Nick: So it’s like, see what you’re feeling, which says that you want her. And then the reality is you cannot have her. And then sing the song and get.

Dhammarato: Me out of it. You got along without her before you met her. You can get along without her now. Here’s one of the things that happens often. I’m not saying it happens in your case, but I’ve certainly seen it recently. And that is the reason that the woman leaves is because the guy, who is actually a diamond dude, doesn’t want her to leave. Subconsciously, he knows that something has gone, something is missing now in the relationship, and he wants it to get back to the way that it was. And so now he presents himself a little bit differently to the wife, which in fact hastens her departure. Okay, so the state. Now.

Nick: I was gonna say, I feel like at that point, it’s out of my hands. It’s gonna happen anyways if it hastens it.

Dhammarato: Yes. So when she first met you, what kind of mood were you in? You were excited and joyful, and she found that attractive. Would she find your current today’s pity party exciting and attractive?

Nick: Not at all.

Dhammarato: Would any woman find you in this current state, dejected in a pity party, wanting something you can’t have?

Nick: I know for a fact they do not.

Dhammarato: All right, all right. So this is all the investigation that we need to do is to see that, number one, those remembrances, those thoughts and those feelings that come from those memories. In other words, when you’re thinking about Walt Disney and Disneyland and not thinking about her, then you don’t feel so bad. You think about Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck and you don’t feel bad. But when you think about her, you feel bad. You can see that those memories cause bad feelings don’t remember her. So when the thoughts of her go come up, you can say something else like, oh, I don’t need to think about her. Let me think about Donald Duck.

Nick: I actually tried some similar things. I don’t know if I was maybe pushing too hard, but I kind of lost my mind a little bit. There’s like, well, you got lost in.

Dhammarato: Thought, lost in memory. When you lose your mind, where do you lose it? Where does it go? It goes off into the forest of bad feelings, the thicket of views. And you already have heard me enough to know that you can think about the things you want to think about. That brings on good feelings. And you’ve gotten yourself into a habit. Pardon?

Nick: Definitely a Habit. How does this play into, like, avoidance or, like, the classic word maybe people would say is, like, spiritual, like, avoidance or something like that.

Dhammarato: All right, if you were driving down the road and there was a tree right beside the road, and you see that tree right beside the road, wouldn’t you want to avoid it? Or do you want to just run right into it? Or worse still, that car bit my. Or that tree bit my car, and we blame the tree.

Nick: I feel like maybe I’m trying to avoid it, but I just. I’m still hitting it a little bit. It’s not like, missing it.

Dhammarato: So you need to see those thoughts coming. You need to be on guard so that when those thoughts come, when those memories come, you can start singing that song. I got along without her before I met her. I can get along without her now. In fact, you’re probably better off without her. McDonald’s only cost half as much.

Nick: That’s true. That is true. What I was saying was like, I feel like when I’m trying these, maybe avoidance is the wrong word, but we’ll just say avoidance techniques. I feel like maybe I just haven’t piled enough burgers on the toilet, as you’d say, but it feels like it’s right.

Dhammarato: You’re still digging right into your sewer, aren’t you?

Nick: Yeah. It still feels not as pure.

Dhammarato: So you need to start piling up those hamburgers as you’re. You’re talking about. You need to start having a whole bunch of happy, wholesome thoughts until they completely cover over and smother all of those. I miss her thoughts. We can actually. In a good way, talking about diversion and avoidance is diversion. You want to divert away from hitting that tree. You want to keep your eye on the road. You want to thrive straight. You don’t want to wind up in the ditch of bad feelings. So start watching your mind. Be careful. Have wholesome thoughts.

Nick: I’m guessing this is kind of like a trap, but, like, I feel good, and then I kind of want to test it and, like, see if I’m still affected by it.

Dhammarato: You’re not ready to do a test yet. You’re not ready for a flight. The old joke is you can’t repair an airplane while you’re flying it.

Nick: Yeah, you’re right.

Dhammarato: Yeah. It’s hard to work on the motor of a car when you’re driving it down the road. You have to park.

Nick: Usually how I do it, though, that’s usually how I do it.

Dhammarato: So in that way, getting off, getting in seclusion, take some time off from Work, Go to the woods, Go to the forest, go camping.

Nick: I’ve been avoiding that for some reason. It’s a good idea.

Dhammarato: As they say, getting away from it all. Including bad memories. Including memories of things you had in the past that are lost now.

Nick: Or at least it will be.

Dhammarato: I’ll.

Nick: I’ll bring. There’ll be less distractions because it’ll just be me and my own thoughts in the forest.

Dhammarato: Well, memories are kind of funny in the sense that we can have bad memories and we can have good memories. An example of a bad memory for me is remembering crawling under the house to work on the hot water heater. Okay. And a good memory then would remembering riding my BMW motorcycle. And I don’t have either one of them anymore. And so the thought that I’ll have when either one of those kind of thoughts come up is, wow, I’m glad I don’t have to deal with that anymore.

Nick: Even for the good one.

Dhammarato: Even for the good one, because even the good one has bad things.

Nick: Because he can’t ride the bike anymore.

Dhammarato: Wrecking the motorbike, having to work on the motor, having to do all the stuff to take care of it, and the losing of it.

Nick: So you’re saying it’s, like, too dangerous?

Dhammarato: Let’s say that if they bring on bad feelings, isn’t that dangerous enough?

Nick: I mean, the good one, the good thoughts.

Dhammarato: Yeah. Aren’t they dangerous enough? Have you. Have you had an actual good experience that didn’t ever end? No, they all end. And so the good experience always winds up in bad feelings. Oh, I had that motorcycle and now I don’t. And I’m actually better off without it. And I’m glad that I’m better off without it. This is why the Buddha talks about it that way, that the past is just the past. Everything comes to an end. The question is, can you live happily right now, no matter what happened in the past? Okay, I don’t know the right word for it. Probably gigolo is not the right word for it, but I’ve had enough girlfriends that some people would call me a gigolo. All right. One time in the 1970s, I was managing three girlfriends at a time. Two of them simultaneously are, let us say, long term, with a third one floating in and out on a regular basis. All right. I am so glad I don’t have to do that anymore.

Nick: It is a lot of work, so.

Dhammarato: Think about it like that. Wow, I’m so glad I don’t have to deal with that anymore. Whatever the past was right now. Wow. I’M so glad I don’t have to deal with that anymore. Wow, what a relief it is.

Nick: I. I think I heard you describe sloth before. Or sloth like sour grapes or something like.

Dhammarato: Well, that’s the whole point is, is that when we don’t get what we want it sour grapes. You thought you had her and you don’t have her. And so right now you’re in sour grapes. Don’t you feel kind of sour because they didn’t get her?

Nick: Yeah.

Dhammarato: Okay, now, the Aesop fable of the. The fox that was trying to jump for the grapes and couldn’t get them. On his way out, he says, oh, those grapes must have been sour. Anyway, basically, what we’re really saying, it’s the fox that’s sour because he didn’t get the grapes, and so he blames the grapes.

Nick: So what you’re saying is you could just say, I don’t need them grapes anyways. Sour or not, you don’t care what they taste like. I don’t need them.

Dhammarato: So don’t go for sour grapes. For her, stay in this moment with, wow, I’m glad I don’t have to deal with that anymore. I’m okay now. I got along without her before I met her. I can get along without her now marvelously.

Nick: I really appreciate it, Domro. Thank you. What’s so funny?

Dhammarato: Just remember to not think about her. Remember that when thoughts come up, when memories come up, people say, hey, I don’t need that right now.

Nick: I don’t need that right now. One. One mantra I was just saying over and over again for was just I forget. But I don’t know if that’s the same attitude. We’ll just say I forget when it. When they come up, or say I forget. But I think that’s more like resistance versus just being okay with it.

Dhammarato: So there you go. You don’t need it. You’re okay. I’m okay without that hot water heater, and I’m really okay without that motorcycle. You’re okay without her.

Nick: I’m just gonna keep replaying that voice clip of you saying that in my.

Dhammarato: Yeah, you don’t need her. You’re okay without her. You got along without her before you met her. You can get along without her now. Marvelously.

Nick: Marvelous. Marvelously.

Dhammarato: All right, well, why don’t we end this call now and you go practice. This is Dharma, you know, this is time for you to practice. Practice getting your mind gladdened up. Brighten the mind having thoughts like, wow, what a relief it is. I don’t have to deal with that anymore with this present moment is good enough.

Nick: I don’t either.

Dhammarato: So practice. Well, practice not thinking about her.

Nick: Thinking about who?

Dhammarato: Pardon?

Nick: I’m just kidding. I said thinking about who.

Dhammarato: Well, think about me. Am I not beautiful?

Nick: I was thinking about you. That’s why I called.

Dhammarato: Depends upon which political party you’re in. But you can think about Putin, you can think about Trump.

Nick: Worst case, Donald Duck.

Dhammarato: Because you’re a whole lot better off than Putin right now. I mean, all you’ve lost is just a girl. He’s lost an empire. You’re a whole lot better off than Donald Trump. You’ve only lost a girl. He’s lost his mind. You’re a whole lot better off than they are. And. And also you can think about me because I’ve lost everything. I’ve lost all my bad people. I’ve lost my empire. I’ve lost my motorcycle. I’ve lost my hot water heater. I’ve lost 30 women. 30 is really conservative.

Nick: Yeah, I feel like that was just. You’re just trying to be nice.

Dhammarato: So think about me because I’ve lost everything and I’m still happy. You can be happy, too. Just have happy thoughts.

Nick: I will do it.

Dhammarato: All right, well, we’ve got a call coming up in a few hours on this is. I don’t know what time it is for you, but it’s. Tie time is Saturday morning at 9:00. We’ll see you then. It’s whatever. Okay. She was like 21 hours from now.

Nick: Yeah. If I’m up, I will be there.

Dhammarato: All right, we’ll see you.

Nick: Have a great day, Donrada. Thank you.

Dhammarato: All right. Don’t worry. Be happy. Don’t worry about her. Don’t think about her.

Nick: I’m gonna just think about you instead.

Dhammarato: Yeah, think about me instead.

Nick: All right, Sounds like a plan.

Dhammarato: All right. Okay. See you later.

Nick: See you.

Summary of this Dhamma Talk

In this Dhamma talk, Dhammarato addresses the emotional turmoil and dissatisfaction (dukkha) that arises from the end of a romantic relationship. The speaker is struggling with feelings of betrayal, loss, and recurring memories of his former partner. Dhammarato guides him through a process of understanding and overcoming these feelings by emphasizing the impermanence of all things, the futility of clinging to the past, and the importance of cultivating wholesome thoughts to replace painful memories.

Dhammarato uses several metaphors and analogies, such as the “sour grapes” story, the “dog turd” analogy, and the idea of “piling hamburgers” to illustrate how to deal with negative thoughts and emotions. He also introduces the concept of “gladdening the mind” by focusing on positive thoughts and memories, rather than dwelling on what has been lost.

The talk is practical and direct, offering specific techniques for managing emotional pain, such as substituting negative thoughts with positive ones, avoiding the “investigation” of painful memories, and practicing mindfulness to stay present. Dhammarato emphasizes that the key to overcoming dissatisfaction is to accept the reality of impermanence and to focus on the present moment.

Outline of this Dhamma Talk

1. Introduction and Context (0:00 - 1:00)

• The speaker expresses confusion about recording and begins discussing the concept of betrayal in relationships, particularly divorce.
• Dhammarato introduces the idea that nothing is permanent, and change is inevitable.

2. The Nature of Change and Dissatisfaction (1:00 - 2:00)

• Dhammarato explains that dissatisfaction (dukkha) arises from the inability to accept change.
• The speaker shares his experience of being left by his partner, who initially claimed she wanted to be alone but later moved on with someone else.

3. The Problem of Clinging to the Past (2:00 - 5:00)

• Dhammarato discusses how clinging to the past and recurring memories cause emotional pain.
• The speaker admits to feeling trapped in a cycle of negative thoughts and flashbacks.

4. The Illusion of Ownership and Control (5:00 - 7:00)

• Dhammarato challenges the speaker’s belief that he ever truly “had” his partner, emphasizing that no one owns or controls another person.
• He uses the analogy of a 75-year marriage ending in death to illustrate that loss is inevitable, and it’s better to accept it early.

5. The Importance of Gladdening the Mind (7:00 - 10:00)

• Dhammarato introduces the concept of gladdening the mind by focusing on positive thoughts and memories.
• He suggests replacing painful memories with the song, “I got along without her before I met her, I can get along without her now.” ¹

6. The Danger of Investigating Painful Memories (10:00 - 13:00)

• Dhammarato warns against over-investigating painful memories, comparing it to dissecting a dog turd.
• He explains that the only investigation needed is to recognize that certain thoughts and memories are painful, and then to let them go.

7. The Sour Grapes Metaphor (13:00 - 17:00)

• Dhammarato uses the sour grapes story to illustrate how we often rationalize our losses by devaluing what we can’t have.
• He encourages the speaker to accept that he doesn’t need his former partner and to focus on the relief of not having to deal with the relationship anymore.

8. Practical Techniques for Managing Thoughts (17:00 - 22:00)

• Dhammarato suggests diversion and avoidance techniques to manage negative thoughts.
• He advises the speaker to “pile hamburgers” (wholesome thoughts) on top of negative thoughts to smother them.

9. The Importance of Seclusion and Mindfulness (22:00 - 25:00)

• Dhammarato recommends taking time for seclusion and mindfulness to break the cycle of negative thinking.
• He suggests going to the forest or camping to get away from distractions and focus on the present moment.

10. The Impermanence of Good and Bad Memories (25:00 - 28:00)

• Dhammarato discusses how even good memories can lead to dissatisfaction because they are impermanent.
• He shares his own experience of losing a motorcycle and a hot water heater, emphasizing that he is better off without them.

11. Conclusion and Final Advice (28:00 - 33:00)

• Dhammarato reiterates the importance of not dwelling on the past and focusing on the present moment.
• He encourages the speaker to practice gladdening the mind and to remember that he doesn’t need his former partner to be happy.

How to Practice

• Accept Impermanence: Recognize that everything changes, and clinging to the past leads to dissatisfaction. Practice letting go of what you cannot control.

• Gladden the Mind: Replace negative thoughts with positive ones. Use mantras or songs like “I got along without her before I met her, I can get along without her now.”

• Avoid Over-Investigating Painful Memories: When painful thoughts arise, acknowledge them as painful, but don’t dwell on them. Instead, divert your attention to something wholesome.

• Practice Diversion and Avoidance: Use diversion techniques to steer your mind away from negative thoughts. For example, think about something joyful or engage in a positive activity.

• Take Time for Seclusion: Spend time in nature or in a quiet place to break the cycle of negative thinking and focus on the present moment.

• Recognize the Illusion of Ownership: Understand that you never truly “own” or control another person. Let go of the idea that you can possess someone or something.

• Use Metaphors to Reframe Thoughts: Apply metaphors like sour grapes or piling hamburgers to reframe your perspective on loss and dissatisfaction.

• Focus on the Present Moment: Practice mindfulness to stay present and avoid getting lost in memories of the past or worries about the future.

• Cultivate Wholesome Thoughts: Actively cultivate thoughts that bring joy and relief, such as “I’m glad I don’t have to deal with that anymore.”

• Practice Non-Attachment: Understand that both good and bad experiences are impermanent. Let go of attachment to outcomes and focus on what you have in the present.

Key Metaphors and Analogies

1. Sour Grapes: This metaphor illustrates how we often devalue what we can’t have. Dhammarato encourages listeners to accept that they don’t need what they’ve lost and to focus on the relief of not having to deal with it anymore.

2. Dog Turd Analogy: Dhammarato compares investigating painful memories to picking up and dissecting a dog turd. The point is that you don’t need to analyze painful thoughts; just recognize they are painful and let them go.

3. Piling Hamburgers: This analogy suggests that you can “smother” negative thoughts by piling wholesome, positive thoughts on top of them. The goal is to replace negative thinking with positive thinking.

4. Driving Around the Tree: Dhammarato uses the metaphor of driving around a tree to illustrate the importance of avoiding negative thoughts. Just as you would avoid hitting a tree while driving, you should steer your mind away from painful memories.

5. Losing the Motorcycle and Hot Water Heater: Dhammarato shares his own experience of losing material possessions to show that even good memories can lead to dissatisfaction because they are impermanent. He emphasizes that he is better off without them.

Clarifications on Metaphors

• Dog Turd Analogy: This metaphor might seem crude, but its purpose is to emphasize that there’s no need to dwell on or analyze painful thoughts. Just as you wouldn’t pick up and examine a dog turd, you shouldn’t linger on negative memories. The key is to recognize them as painful and move on.

• Sour Grapes: This metaphor is often misunderstood as a form of rationalization or denial. However, Dhammarato uses it to encourage acceptance and letting go. The idea is not to devalue what you’ve lost out of spite, but to accept that you don’t need it and focus on the present.

By applying these teachings, listeners can learn to manage dissatisfaction, let go of the past, and cultivate a more joyful and present-focused mindset.

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References